Home
Arabs and Osama
First Time in History
The Fires
The Twin Towers
World Trade Cener 7
The Free Fall Fallacy
Molten Steel Explained
Sounds of Explosions
The Firemans Quotes
Civil Engineers Quotes
Peer Reviewed Paper
Professor Steven E Jones
Massive Conspriracy
The Real Conspiracy
Government Planning
The 911 Zogby Poll
Debunking 911 Links

In Defense of Rosie

Recently, Rosie O'Donnell has made some statements on The View which have created a bit of controversy.

"No, but I do believe it's the first time in history that fire has melted steel - I do believe that it defies physics for the World Trade Center Building 7, which collapsed in on itself, it is impossible for a building to fall the way it fell without explosives being involved - World Trade Center 7."

"One and two got hit by planes, 7 miraculously, the first time in history, steel was melted by fire - it is physically impossible,"

"I don't know but to say we don't know and it was imploded in a demolition is beyond ignorant, look at the films get a physics expert here from Yale, from Harvard, pick the school, it defies reason."

I write this, not to pile on and call for her firing, but to do the opposite. I also write this to the people who have concluded that the buildings collapsed by fire but think Rosie must go.

There is a distinct difference between Rosie and Steven Jones. Rosie is not a professor teaching children science. She is a comedian on a talk show. It is reasonable to suggest she doesn't have the time, or even know how to research this on the internet. (I'm sure she believes she has but the evidence shows she hasn't) I find it hard to believe she is one of the "Eyes open" conspiracy theorists. I suspect she saw some internet videos and read some conspiracy sites without seriously having the time to research this on her own. While I feel it would have been better to call Yale or Harvard before making those claims, I find the idea of censoring her even more disturbing. Even if that censorship is only in the corporate media.

I ask, is this what America has devolved to? Can anyone speak their mind anymore? Are we so fearful a culture that we have become little McCarthys - looking to take away anyone's job who says anything misinformed?

I hope not; I don't want to live in that kind of America. The America I grew up in was an example of freedom to the world. As long as it doesn't affect one's job, we should be able to say anything we want about a major event, (As long as it respects the memories of the people who died on 9/11)  without repercussions.

We also pledge allegiance to the flag, not to politicians. Our founding fathers expected us to question our leaders as they questioned theirs. Not to question our leaders may be the most unpatriotic thing we can do. Rosie hasn't said the government did it but I suspect much of the push to get her fired is because of her contempt for the present administration.

With that said, let me address Rosie's statement directly.

"I do believe it's the first time in history that fire has melted steel"

This was an obvious error in communicating. I'm sure she realizes that fires DO melt steel. That's how it is manufactured. So the question becomes, "what did she mean?

Rosie writes back to a reader on her blog...

judy writes:

Rosie, did you know steel is made with fire i know this because my hubby works in a steel mill.
please answer you never answer my questions

Rosie writes:

yes
did u know water freezes at 32degrees
no at 34 or 67 but 32

steel melts at 2700 degrees

no steel building in history
has even been pulverized into dust
like wtc7
by a fire

I suspect that what Rosie doesn't know is that the fires didn't need to melt the steel to collapse the building as the conspiracy sites she links to suggest. They only had to weaken the steel. Even at 300C, steel loses 20% of its strength. Scientific studies, even from other countries, say that a normal office fire can reach over 1,100C.

She also may not know that steel oxidizes when exposed to low levels of heat for an extended time, as would be the case in the debris pile. Anyone expecting Rosie to know this is just character assassinating. There were thousands of gallons of fuel oil missing from the WTC Con Ed sub station. It wasn't found by the workers cleaning up the site. Where did it go? It's not unreasonable to conclude that it burned. Especially given the fires which burned so long. What she also fails to ask herself is how explosives would have caused the effect. If she thinks it's thermite, the tons needed and the horizontal cut would make it near impossible, even for the government, to do covertly. Canisters for which there is no evidence of existence other than a patent, and for which there is no evidence whatsoever that they would work on vertical columns   would have to be wrapped around each column, using conspiracy theorist logic. Remember, they say all the connections were cut, which is (according to them) the only way the building could have fallen as fast as they did. No resistance, remember? All of the office workers came in and never questioned the drywall around the columns, which would have been widened to accommodate the canisters? Or is the suggestion they were all murderous NEO-CONS working in the building, who saw the covert work done as part of the master plan? How huge is this conspiracy? It seems to grow by the thousands per month. All of the news reporters and now all of the workers in the WTC7? With all due respect Rosie, how much can you swallow?

The idea that no buildings have ever collapsed due to fires is also misinformation fed to her by the "eyes open" conspiracy theorists. Let's see the examples...

The McCormick Center in Chicago and the Sight and Sound Theater in Pennsylvania are examples of steel structures collapsing. The theater was fire protected using drywall and spray on material. A high rise in Philly didn't collapse after a long fire but firefighters evacuated the building when a pancake structural collapse was considered likely. Other steel-framed buildings partially collapsed due fires one after only 20 minutes.

The steel framed McCormick Center was at the time the World's largest exhibition center. It like the WTC used long steel trusses to create a large open space without columns. Those trusses were unprotected but of course much of the WTC lost it's fire protection due to the impacts.

"As an example of the damaging effect of fire on steel, in 1967, the original heavy steel-constructed McCormick Place exhibition hall in Chicago collapsed only 30 minutes after the start of a small electrical fire."

http://www.wconline.com/CDA/Archive/24ae78779d768010Vgn
VCM100000f932a

[Note this article has several comments from engineers who back the
WTC collapse theory.]

"The unprotected steel roof trusses failed early on in the fire"

http://www.chipublib.org/004chicago/disasters/mccormick_fire.html


The McCormick Place fire "is significant because it illustrates the fact that steel-frame buildings can collapse as a result of exposure to fire. This is true for all types of construction materials, not only steel." wrote Robert Berhinig, associate manager of UL's Fire Protection Division and a registered professional engineer. He also discusses UL's steel fire certification much more knowledgably than Kevin Ryan. He is an example of one more highly qualified engineer who supports the collapse theory.

http://www.iaei.org/subscriber/magazine/02_d/berhinig.htm

From the FEMA report of the theater fire, my comments in [ ]
www.interfire.org/res_file/pdf/Tr-097.pdf

On the morning of January 28, 1997, in the Lancaster County, Pennsylvania township of Strasburg, a fire caused the collapse of the state-of-the-art, seven year old Sight and Sound Theater and resulted in structural damage to most of the connecting buildings.
The theater was a total loss, valued at over $15 million.

pg 6/74

The theater was built of steel rigid frame construction to allow for the large open space of the auditorium, unobstructed by columns... The interior finish in the auditorium was drywall.

The stage storage area, prop assembly building, and prop maintenance building were protected with a sprayed-on fire resistant coating on all structural steel. The plans called for the coating to meet a two-hour fire resistance assembly rating. The sprayed-on coating, which was susceptible to damage from the movement of theater equipment, was protected by attaching plywood coverings on the columns to a height of eight feet.

The walls of the storage area beneath the stage were layered drywall to provide a two-hour fire protection rating for the mezzanine offices [the WTC used drywall as fire protection in the central core] , and sprayed-on fire-resistant coatings on the structural
steel columns and ceiling bar joists supporting the stage floor.
pg 15/74

The two theater employees told the State Police Fire Investigator that when they first discovered the fire they noticed that the sprayed-on fire proofing had been knocked off the underside of the stage floor bar joists and support steel. The fire proofing was hanging on the wire mesh used to hold the coating to the overhead. The investigation revealed that the construction company's removal of the stage floor covering down to the corrugated decking involved striking the floor hard enough to knock off the sprayed-on protection, exposing the structural steel and bar-joists in the storage area. [The theater's spray-on fireproofing was newer and more modern than at the WTC, The theater was only seven years old. If striking the floor during renovations was enough to dislodge it imagine the impact of a 767]

pg 16/74

Temperatures of 1000 F can cause buckling and temperatures of 1500 F can cause steel to lose strength and collapse. When the heat and hot gases reached the stage ceiling they extended horizontally into the auditorium, causing the roof to fail all the way to the lobby fire wall. The fire also extended horizontally from the stage to the elevated hallway, causing the structural steel to fail and buckle in the prop assembly and prop maintenance buildings

pg 17/74

Once the heat of the fire caused the structural steel to fail in the storage area (aided by the damage to the sprayed-on fire protection during renovation), interior firefighting became too hazardous to continue. The truck crews ventilating the roof noted metal
discoloration and buckling steel.

pg. 21/74

The two hour fire resistance-rated assembly in the storage area beneath the stage was damaged during the stage floor renovation, leaving the structural members unprotected from the ensuing fire.

pg. 26/74

Buildings constructed of steel should, in effect, be considered unprotected and capable of collapse from fire in as few as ten minutes. Fire resistant coatings sprayed onto structural steel are susceptible to damage from construction work.

The impact of fire and heat on structural steel members warrant extreme caution by firefighters.

pg. 36/74
Unless the steel members are cooled with high-volume hose streams, the fire's heat can rapidly cause steel to lose its strength and contribute to building collapse.
pg. 37/74

Other Fires

In February 1991, a fire broke out in One Meridian Plaza - a 38 story office building in Philadelphia. The building was built during the same period as the WTC and had spray-on fire protection on its steel frame. Despite not suffering impact damage, authorities were worried it might collapse.

"All interior firefighting efforts were halted after almost 11 hours of uninterrupted fire in the building. Consultation with a structural engineer and structural damage observed by units operating in the building led to the belief that there was a
possibility of a pancake structural collapse of the fire damaged
floors."

 
http://www.usfa.fema.gov/downloads/txt/publications/tr-049.txt

About 2 years later, the NYFD was concerned that a steel framed building that partially collapsed during after a gas explosion might collapse entirely due to the resulting fire.

http://www.usfa.fema.gov/downloads/pdf/publications/TR-068.pdf


Part of a floor of an unprotected steel frame building collapsed in Brackenridge, Pennsylvania on, December 20, 1991, killing 4 volunteer firemen.

http://www.usfa.fema.gov/downloads/pdf/publications/TR-061.pdf


Part of the roof of a steel framed school in Virginia collapsed about 20 minutes after fire broke out


http://www.usfa.fema.gov/downloads/pdf/publications/tr-135.pdf

The truth about the Madrid Fire...

The steel which was not encased in concrete also collapsed early from fire. NONE of the WTC 7 steel was encased in concrete.

Explosions were also heard...

"Bright orange flames shot out the sides of the Windsor Building, which is near one of Madrid's main boulevards.

The fire started around 11:30 p.m. Saturday and was still burning out of control several hours later. At least nine upper stories were on fire and muffled explosions could be heard in the building."

http://newsfromrussia.com/accidents/2005/02/13/58231.html

Steel columns snapping under tremendous tension will make an explosive sound. Be it in Madrid or the World Trade Center.

The statement " I do believe that it defies physics for the World Trade Center Building 7, which collapsed in on itself, it is impossible for a building to fall the way it fell without explosives being involved" is also not based in fact. She can believe anything she wants but it's quite another thing to prove it. One misinformation she's been fed is the speed of it's collapse. It did NOT fall in less than 7 seconds. Here's the evidence...

 

Seismic readings say the collapse took at least 18 seconds. It's not impossible for the collapse to have started on the south side away from cameras well before the less than 7 seconds of north face collapse. In fact the evidence supports it.

Rosie said:

"no steel building in history
has even been pulverized into dust
like wtc7
by a fire"

Rosie, no steel building has ever been "pulverized into dust", even to this day. Career conspiracy theorists point to a photo taken from well above the debris pile as supposed evidence that WTC7 was pulverized into a small pile.

But camera angles can be deceptive, as career conspiracy theorists know. Below is evidence that the pile was much taller than conspiracy theorists say.

It looks to me like the firemen atop the aerial ladder are about four stories high. That means the pile is more than eight stories high, taking the camera angle into account. That doesn't include what fell into the rather large basement.

More Photos here

 "I don't know but to say we don't know and it was imploded in a demolition is beyond ignorant, look at the films get a physics expert here from Yale, from Harvard, pick the school, it defies reason."

I challenge Rosie. I challenge her to keep her word and talk to a civil or structural engineer from Harvard or Yale. I suspect that's what she meant by "physics experts" since physics experts have little to do with building construction and design. It is civil and structural engineers who will know what the buildings can and can not do. ANY structural or civil engineering professor from a RESPECTED university will do.

Not ONE civil or structural engineer has passed a peer reviewed paper by a respected scientific journal suggesting what Rosie is saying. ( The Journal Of 911 studies is NOT a respected scientific journal. The journal was invented for the same reason creationist journals were. Because their notions can not stand up to REAL scientific scrutiny. Nor do the other places where Jones' 911 paper is published have any impact to the scientific community.) So where does she get this idea from? The only places she's looked: from conspiracy theorists. Where else would she get this from? She isn't a civil or structural engineer.

Steven Jones is not a civil engineer. Civil engineers in his own university don't believe him so you can count him out as unbiased.

Then, if she concludes that WTC 7 could fall the way it did, I beg her to tell her fans. At least link to this site and let people make up their own mind.

Home | Osama Bin Laden | First time in history | Free Fall | The Fire | The Twin Towers | Impacts | Fires and Fire Proofing | Columns and Trusses Towers Collapse | WTC 7 | WTC 7 South Side | WTC 7 Photos | Squelching "Squibs" | Rethinking Thermite | Explosions | Firemen Quotes
Civil Engineers Quotes | Prof. Steven Jones | Massive Conspiracy | Zogby | Real Conspiracy | Government Planning | Molten Steel
Peer-reviewed Papers | Iron Burns!!! | Madrid/Windsor Tower |
Conspiracy Theorist Hall of Fame | Fire Gallery 1 | Fire Gallery 2 | Fire Gallery 3
General Fires Gallery